Feminism actually has a definition, despite what is being said here. The term is nearly a century old.
Feminism is the idea that men & women are equal.
That's it.
Feminists organized for suffrage, equal pay, & reproductive rights for women, among other issues. The movement was needed because men already had these rights but women did not. The movement is still needed because, with the exception of suffrage, women still don't have these rights.
For example, women are paid .79 to a man's dollar for the same job & many women, particularly in rural & impoverished areas, don't have access to birth control & other reproductive health benefits.
Perhaps the confusion lies in a proper knowledge of history & anthropology. Perhaps the confusion lies in straw man fallacies. I don't know but I truly do not understand why this is so confusing to so many people.
Citation needed. Feminism is actually derived from a french word meaning the quality of being female. There was no understanding of it in it's modern form in 1916. In fact, I'd say even in 1976, no-one would have used the definition you are now pushing - and far too many important feminists made it clear they saw equality with men as a step down.
If Feminism was an equality movement, it would never have let Dworkin run how it was taught.
"Feminism is the idea that men & women are equal."
That's not even in cherrypicked dictionaries, because the word for that is egalitarian - and that idea was floated about in Greek times.
"Feminists organized for suffrage"
Rubbish, the Chartists, Suffragists and Suffragettes did that. Unless Feminists invented time travel, they can't have influenced things that occurred before they existed.
" equal pay"
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.
You do know they actually did the complete opposite? I feel like I'm repeating myself but I guess you haven't actually read anything that wasn't written by a Feminist, so here goes AGAIN.
Once they had done that, they were then free to pay men less for identical work, because there was no legal body to enforce equality of opportunity any more.
" reproductive rights for women"
And only for women - because that's how a movement that only mean equality - which is your central claim - would act. Only in the interests of one group, and only against the interests of another group.
" The movement was needed because men already had these rights "
You claimed Feminists fought for Suffrage. That would mean men had the right to vote.
No. I realise learning new things might be difficult for you, but the failure of your education is too serious for me to rectify. You need to go pick up a history textbook and read it, or talk to a history teacher.
" The movement is still needed because, with the exception of suffrage, women still don't have these rights."
Ok, at this point you are supposed to provide evidence.
"For example, women are paid .79 to a man's dollar for the same job "
Wow, that's amazing! Because that would be a crime.
Now, somewhere along the line a Feminist told you this, but there was something they seem to have overlooked. Which company is doing this.
Name them.
If you are right, you can take that company to court, you can get rich.
Of course, if it's baseless slander, they'll sue you into the ground.
So I urge all Feminists to name the company that is doing this, because Justice should be done and bad people should be destroyed. Of course, you and I seem to have a very different idea of what the bad people are in this situation.
"many women, particularly in rural & impoverished areas, don't have access to birth control "
In the West? Rubbish. In foreign countries? Neither do the men.
In poor countries, if you don't have lots of kids, you die. No-one else looks after you when you are old or sick.
You do not understand economics, history, geography - all you do is put on your Feminist lens and see persecution everywhere.
"Perhaps the confusion lies in a proper knowledge of history & anthropology."
Hahaha, like the Feminist anthropology in "The First Sex"? Lol! Good one! who says Feminists don't have a sense of humour!
"The thought kept intruding itself that modern man was a repeater
—that every discovery he made and every invention he conceived had been discovered and invented before, in a forgotten past civilization of tens or even hundreds of thousands of years ago."
This is purest bullshit. The idea that ancient humans had nuclear weapons and spacecraft appeals to conspiracy theorists, the deranged - and Feminists.
"I don't know"
And that is the wisest thing you have said.
Go to a library, find a book not written by a feminist, and read it.
Feminist: "Feminism: great for women... also great for men!"
Sane Person: "Uh huh. So when you disrupted a conference on male suicide by pulling fire alarms, singing "Cry Me a River" and offering to collect the male tears of the brothers and sons of the dead, how was that helping men?"
Feminist: "The fact that you question Feminism is the reason we need Feminism!"
Sane Person: "That's a deflection. Why don't you answer the question?"
Feminist: "Why do you hate women?"
Mackenzie Traylor (Feminist) replied:
Those aren't feminists. Those are people acting under the name of feminism who have no idea what the movement is truly about, and who don't care what the movement is about.
Those are people who are trying to use a good movement for their own selfish needs. Every movement has people like that. It's horrible. But, they should not be allowed to define the movement itself. Those aren't feminists. Feminists are supporting the discussion. Feminists truly understand the gender inequality and strive to end it. Feminists do not ignore the problems of another gender or race or sexual identity.
http://www.womynkind.org/scum.htm For a not-a-feminist, it's funny how welcome she was to feminist conferences, how feminist bookstores sold her books, & how feminists taught her work in feminist courses in Universities.
Those women you're talking about aren't feminists. They're just using the title to carry on their petty little acts. They're ruining the reputation of a good movement.
Andrea Dworkin, the founder of modern Feminism, the person who set up Gender Studies courses at Universities, and started Social Justice Warfare.
"Those are people acting under the name of feminism who have no idea what the movement is truly about"
And you alone know the True Feminism? This sounds familiar. How did this Divine Revelation occur? And how come the other lot are follower of the Gourd? Are they not true Brianists - I mean, Feminists?
I wouldn't mind so much if Feminism DID declare itself a religion
- but Feminists will never do that because Secular Democracies have rules, like not promoting one religion above all others - that would be catastrophic to Feminism.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a Female Rights Advocate. Which is why she opposes Islam in it's current form. And why Feminists hate her.
" Those are people who are trying to use a good movement for their own selfish needs."
Do you have any evidence of what is in their mind? Have they written anything to indicate they are insincere? That they don't believe in The Patriarchy(TM)?
They qualify. They are accepted as Feminists by other Feminists, taught their Feminism by Feminists in Feminist courses at Universities, attend Feminist conferences without being removed, etc etc.
To argue that they are not Feminists if they are inconvenient is the same sophistry that was used to excuses the atrocities of Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot.
"they should not be allowed to define the movement itself."
The people leading the movement define the movement.
When Feminist lecturers are telling students to assault journalists, and other Feminists - like you - refuse to campaign against them and change the way Feminism is taught - then you are responsible for what they do.
You might be a nice Nazi - you don't hurt any Jews yourself.
But you always turn away when the smoke comes into your town, you always look away when the trains of people crying and begging for help roll past.
Stop making excuses.
"Feminists are supporting the discussion. "
To support the discussion, you have to allow differing points of view.
"Those women you're talking about aren't feminists. They're just using the title to carry on their petty little acts. They're ruining the reputation of a good movement."
Looking at the dwindling numbers of women who identify as Feminsits - it's doing that to itself quite nicely. No wonder Feminists want to make the teaching of it's ideology compulsory to children. It's unable to recruit by reason, but if it can just catch young minds before they are able to think critically...
Kristen Tea (Feminist) said:
"Because men aren't capable of dealing with their own issues? Feminism must be devoted to fixing all of those issues, in addition to women's abuse, homelessness, rape, etc.? MRAs only bring those men's issues up to counter feminism, not because they actually care about them. When's the last time you organized and donated to men's shelters? Do you know how women's domestic abuse shelters came about? We needed them and created them."
Kristen Tea
"Because men aren't capable of dealing with their own issues? "
the funny thing about egalitarian movements is they treat people equally.
An egalitarian who sees a homeless couple shivering in the cold doesn't decide only the white person there, or the straight person, gets shelter... they provide shelter for both.
Feminists play favourites. They only care about women - but they take taxes generated by men to solve the problems.
"Feminism must be devoted to fixing all of those issues"
Actually, we're fine with Female Rights Activists who only focus on female rights - but don't actively impede us. Feminists will disrupt any meetings we hold, will alter laws to make funding DV shelters impossible, will continually preach that our very masculinity is toxic and even call for genocide.
When Erin Pizzey set up DV shelters for women, Feminists approved. When she tried to do the same for men, Feminists threatened the lives of her family, and she had to flee the country.
"MRAs only bring those men's issues up to counter feminism"
Father's rights advocates have existed since the Tender Years doctrine. Many MRAs came with the 2nd wave Feminists. We marched in the marches and sang the songs and thought that helping women was just and never dreamt that Feminists would stab us in the back.
Feminists decided men were no longer to be Feminists, but, at best - allies. They sabotaged every effort we made to protect men. They even tried to get us declared terrorists through the SPLC. Feminists actively discriminate against men in the laws they make, and call for even antifeminist thoughts to be criminalised.
"When's the last time you organized and donated to men's shelters?"
Since Feminists disrupt any meeting to discuss the issue, how the hell do you imagine that can work?
Since Feminists would rather close shelters rather than allow them to be unisex - and that includes open to the sons as well as the daughters! - how would such shelters work?
The blood and sweat of men is used to build the shelters for women - that's taxation, and the taxes should be spent on all of us, according to need - not just white people, not just straight people, and not just female people.
Feminists are gender supremacists.
" Do you know how women's domestic abuse shelters came about? "
Yes. You don't.
"We needed them and created them."
You didn't have anything to do with it. You have no idea who Ms Pizzey is.
Every point you have made indicates you have never checked to see if the things you believe are true.
Someone told you things that you like, and so you believed blindly.
I don't expect you to look at my references, or to research anything outside of feminist opinions. I really don't care if you can be bothered reading a word outside your echo chamber.
But the truth is here, for any open minded person.
They can check - either through my writing or their own research
- if what i have said is true
- by simply venturing outside the Feminist framework, looking at the work of criminologists, of biologists, of psychiatrists and of people like Erin Pizzey who started the fight for men, and who were defeated by your movement, which now lies and lies and lies in order to make sure no protection is extended to men - and every cent is spent on their favoured kind.
“…the research, carried out among 1,200 children in 29 schools across the country (England), had shown a possible reason for the glaring gap in performance between girls and boys right through schooling.
It also revealed that girls tried harderif they had a male teacher because they believed they would get better marks.
Their suspicions were not borne out, though, as the male teachers tended to give them exactly the same marks as the external examiners.
The study showed boys believed their answers would be 3 per cent lower if marked by a woman. The girls thought their results would be 6 per cent higher if marked by a man.” "...female teachers did, on average, award lower marks to boys than unidentified external examiners. Male teachers, by contrast, awarded them higher marks than external examiners."
It would be interesting to see how the marks would be if the examiners had nothing to clue them as to which sex the student was.
I have heard elsewhere that female teachers mark boys down because they see them as defective girls. So if a paper is handed in with a female name at the top, a female teacher - especially a feminist teacher - will mark it up - and mark it down when they see a male name.
Feminist Quotes.
Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor:
- "I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them." —
-"I haven’t the faintest notion what possible revolutionary role white hetero- sexual men could fulfill,... I have great difficulty examining what men in general could possibly do about all this. ...possibly not exist? No, I really don’t mean that. Yes, I really do."
-"I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire."
-"kill your fathers, not your mothers".
Valerie Solanas, Authoress of the SCUM Manifesto -"To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he’s a machine, a walking dildo."
-"there remains to civic-minded, responsible, thrill-seeking females only to overthrow the government, eliminate the money system, institute complete automation, and destroy the male sex."
"The male is a domestic animal which, if treated with firmness…can be trained to do most things." — Jilly Cooper, SCUM (Society For Cutting Up Men, started by Valerie Solanas)
"Since marriage constitutes slavery for women, it is clear that the women’s movement must concentrate on attacking this institution. Freedom for women cannot be won without the abolition of marriage." — Sheila Cronin, the leader of the feminist organization NOW
Andrea Dworkin
-"I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig." —
-"Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice."
-"Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women’s bodies."
-"Under patriarchy, every woman’s son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman."
-"To be rapeable, a position that is social, not biological, defines what a woman is." -"The annihilation of a woman’s personality, individuality, will, character, is prerequisite to male sexuality."
"The institution of sexual intercourse is anti-feminist" — Ti-Grace Atkinson
"Feminism is the theory, lesbianism is the practice." — Ti-Grace Atkinson
"Rape is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear" — Susan Brownmiller; Authoress of Against Our Will p.6
"When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression." — Sheila Jeffrys
"Politically, I call it rape whenever a woman has sex and feels violated." — Catherine MacKinnon
"All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman." — Catherine MacKinnon
"You grow up with your father holding you down and covering your mouth so another man can make a horrible searing pain between your legs." — Catherine MacKinnon (Prominent legal feminist scholar; University of Michigan, & Yale.)
"In a patriarchal society, all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent." — Catharine MacKinnon, quoted in Professing Feminism: Cautionary Tales from the Strange World of Women’s Studies.
"The more famous and powerful I get the more power I have to hurt men." — Sharon Stone; Actress
"The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race." — Sally Miller Gearhart, in The Future - If There Is One - Is Female.
"And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual (male), it may be mainly a quantitative difference." — Susan Griffin, Rape: The All-American Crime.
"If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males." —Mary Daly, former Professor at Boston College, 2001.
"If anyone is prosecuted for filing a false report, then victims of real attacks will be less likely to report them." - David Angier
"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience." - Catherine Comins
"As long as some men use physical force to subjugate females, all men need not. The knowledge that some men do suffices to threaten all women. He can beat or kill the woman he claims to love; he can rape women…he can sexually molest his daughters… THE VAST MAJORITY OF MEN IN THE WORLD DO ONE OR MORE OF THE ABOVE." — Marilyn French (her emphasis)
"All men are rapists and that’s all they are" — Marilyn French, Authoress; (later, advisoress to Al Gore’s Presidential Campaign.)
"The media treat male assaults on women like rape, beating, and murder of wives and female lovers, or male incest with children, as individual aberrations…obscuring the fact that all male violence toward women is part of a concerted campaign." — Marilyn French
"I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He’s just incapable of it." — Barbara Jordan; Former Congresswoman.
"A woman who has sex with a man, therefore, does so against her will, ‘even if she does not feel forced.’ — Judith Levine, (explicating comment profiling prevailing misandry.)
"I feel what they feel: man-hating, that volatile admixture of pity, contempt, disgust, envy, alienation, fear, and rage at men. It is hatred not only for the anonymous man who makes sucking noises on the street, not only for the rapist or the judge who acquits him, but for what the Greeks called philo-aphilos, ‘hate in love,’ for the men women share their lives with—husbands, lovers, friends, fathers, brothers, sons, coworkers." — Judith Levine, Authoress of My Enemy, My love
"There are no boundaries between affectionate sex and slavery in (the male) world.
Distinctions between pleasure and danger are academic; the dirty-laundry list of ‘sex acts’…includes rape, foot binding, fellatio, intercourse, auto eroticism, incest, anal intercourse, use and production of pornography, cunnilingus, sexual harassment, and murder."
[Brett Caton's note - i love the lumping together of anal sex and murder!]
— Judith Levine; summarizing comment on the WAS document, (A southern Women’s Writing Collective: Women Against Sex.)
"Considering the nature and pervasiveness of men’s violence, I would say that without question, children are better off being raised without the presence of men. " — taken from Daphne Patai’s excellent critical work, Heterophobia
"The simple fact is that every woman must be willing to be identified as a lesbian to be fully feminist" (National NOW Times, January, 1988)
"Overthrowing capitalism is too small for us" (Gloria Steinem, radical feminist leader, editor of MS magazine)
"Therefore it is important for us to encourage women to leave their husbands and not to live individually with men…. We must go back to ancient female religions like witchcraft" (from "The Declaration of Feminism," November, 1971)
"We are, as a sex, infinitely superior to men." — Elizabeth Cady Stanton
1) Never address your opponents points. Logic and reason are PATRIARCHY. Instead, appeal to emotion - feel-feelz are our greatest ally!
2) If a male dissents, immediately dismiss anything they might say because they are male - mansplaining.
If it’s a female - internalised misogyny!
Disagreeing with a feminist means you hate all women! That will shame them into silence, or help whip up a mob against the logic attack!
3) Lie, lie, lie. I cannot emphasis this enough. When you wake up in the morning, when you are brushing your teeth, think, over and over, “the wage gap is real! the wage gap is real!”
Eventually you will believe it yourself. This will make lying so much easier.
Write an article: Women are only paid 78% what men are! Imply it’s for the same work (in the fine print, you can weasel out of it - just make sure they have the impression you want). Then, like the Feminist Initiative, propose a just solution: males must pay more.
Now those logic fascists will cry about apples and oranges, point out that men work longer hours and at harder jobs, and they will bring up dying at ten times the rate as a result - as if we cared about them dying!
How is this unfair or wrong, or hateful? My local YMCA has a sliding scale, people who make less can pay less. Is the Y being hateful? Seems to me like if women are paid less, they should be charged less, at least if you want to be fair.
That's just what I said when I charged the Jews who entered my shop a little extra, to make up for all the money they steal. I don't have any proof, but I read they do it on a website, so that's all the truth i need!
"My local YMCA has a sliding scale, people who make less can pay less. Is the Y being hateful? "
Ah, so they pay equally FOR THE SAME WORK? Huh. That sounds like they are obeying the law. Just like men are when they pay DIFFERENTLY for DIFFERENT work.
"Seems to me like if women are paid less"
for different work. Do you know what an average is? Because that's how the 'pay gap' myth goes.
You sum up all the money men earn, and average that, and compare the average to what women earn on average.
You ignore all the differences. You know they are there, but you also know what conclusion you want to get to. Men are wicked, women are their victims.. gotta massage the data until it says what you want it to say!
The fact men work longer? Who cares. They work dangerous jobs that gets them killed at ten times the rate? Sweep that under the rug!
This was exposed as a lie decades ago, but feminists keep repeating the Blood Libel. It helps whip up hate against men, and make women feel weak - and then Feminism leaps up and says "WE WILL SAVE YOU!!"
There's no difference from that and claiming jewish people are kidnapping christian babies for sacrifice to Satan. That was something hateful spread, knowing it was a lie, but so full of hate they just didn't care about the truth. And we know how that ended.
You should get an Oscar for that performance. What rapid escalation into hysteria. Is it your time of the month? You're getting so worked up. Just relax, you're delicate. The big girls can handle this for you. Stop worrying your pretty little head, Brett.
FYI, I took more than my fair share of stats, calculus, physics, and trig in college. I can read and understand research methods and data just fine. Clearly better than you can.
"FYI, I took more than my fair share of stats, calculus, physics, and trig in college. I can read and understand research methods and data just fine. "
Prove it. Prove all those economists wrong. I look forward to reading about your Nobel.
In the meanwhile - you resort to personal attacks - because YOU HAVE NO ARGUMENT.
Ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem..
And no answers to any of my points, or of any of those raised decades ago when the lie first became obvious.
You don't care about the truth. Your hatred makes you blind.
For example, women are paid .79 to a man's dollar for the same job & many women, particularly in rural & impoverished areas, don't have access to birth control & other reproductive health benefits.
You just Listen and Believe.
Hahaha, like the Feminist anthropology in "The First Sex"? Lol! Good one! who says Feminists don't have a sense of humour!
